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246 Dino Ignition - what's best?
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Posts: 4Registered: Oct 2004
cwzilk
Junior Member


Monday, May 09, 2005 12:27 PM

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I'm confused as to which is best - dual point or single point ignition. Is one or the other original on US Spec Dinos?

I have a 72(US)246 Dino GTS #04004. It has a single point, 6 lobe Marelli distributor. The Dinoplex ignition core has been replaced by T. Rutlands with a FRS Perma-Tune unit. Rutlands recommended running NGK BP6ES at gap of .065" (which I have done)with the Perma-Tune system and even increasing carb jets one or two sizes (which I have not done). The Microswitch (for dual point?) has either been removed during this "upgrade" or never existed. I have removed the air pump and removed/plugged all air injectors into the exhaust headers. All sump vents and other sources of air leakage into the intake manifold have been removed/plugged.

Static timing has been set on #3 at 6 deg. BTDC. Advance at RPMs as follows:
Idle to 1000 = 8 deg
2000 = 25 deg
3000 = 28 deg
4000 = 33 deg
5000 = 34 deg
5500 = 36 deg max.

This is a steeper advance curve than that shown in the "book" (dual point). Is this faster advance normal for single point? It's possible timing light isn't reading correctly but, it is new. How does one determine if the distributor needs rebuilding? Carbs tune/sync. nicely and warm idle is steady at 900-950. Engine accelerates to redline easily without backfiring on deceleration.

Sorry for the long-winded question but, what discussion there has been on the subject of single vs. dual point has been without any definite conclusion one way or the other.

Bill






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Posts: 1202Registered: Dec 2001
BillBadurski
FCA Technical Chairman


Monday, May 09, 2005 4:41 PM

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Both the Euro and USA distributors use two sets of points. Big difference is that the original dual point Euro set up with three lobed cams had to give way for the USA version to meet emissions regs. USA car has the second set of points used to run retarded timing at low rpm. These were called R2. The microswitch enabled the R2 circuit to function with the throttle linkage at rest or nearly so. Once throttle is opened, switch opened R2 circuit and R1 points took over for normal timing. The change to USA required a six lobe cam, since only one set of points was operating. The R1 set should have four leaf springs vs three used on R2. So long as you don't get point bounce with the single point arrangement, no reason to worry about dual points.

My Shop Manual shows static timing of 9 deg, full advance of 39 deg @ 5500 rpm, so if you advance by three degrees you're right on the money. I've never heard of running a .065" plug gap, especially in a Ferrari where the wires are bundled together and could cross-fire. But if they've got experience doing so, then I guess it works.

NGK plug heat range is backwards from the rest of the world, so a "6" is hotter than a "7". I find that 6's tend to run rather hot in spirited driving, and use 7's instead. The iridium fine wire plug is the best, BPR7EIX.

-------------------------
William V. Badurski
FCA Technical Chairman


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Posts: 4Registered: Oct 2004
cwzilk
Junior Member


Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:51 PM

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Thankyou Bill!

I believe I understand! Please correct me if I'm wrong. In the beginning, all US & Euro Dinos had 3 lobe cams with 2 sets of points - one set firing 3 cylinders and the other set firing the other 3. This config. would increase the dwell time for the points and eliminate any problem with point bounce. Seems logical to me. When the US cars had to meet emission standards, all US cars had to go to 6 lobe distributors in order for the 2nd set of points (R2) to retard all 6 cylinders at idle. As a result, the benefit of 1 set of points per 3 cylinders (1:3) was lost. Now my question: Is there a performance advantage with the 1:3 config. or, in my case, is the Perma-Tune ignition immune to point bounce?

To quote Perma-Tune, "The Model FRS increases spark energy three times that of the stock ignition system. This is why spark plugs will never foul again, and can be set to .065" gap and will actually recover from fuel contamination. The Perma-Tune system uses the points only as a sensor so they will generally last the life of the engine. Dwell is not a factor, simply set the points to stock gap and adjust timing using a timing light." Actually, this is a reprint by T. Rutlands who did the conversion from the Dinoplex to Perma-Tune, so, I'm not sure whom I'm quoting here!

Here's where the .065 plug gap may be an issue. PT/Rutlands recommends using 7 or 8mm solid strand silicone plug wire w/ 10mm heat shielding, nylon wire clamps and wire separators. Something's not right here - 8mm + 10mm is 18mm which is garden hose size. Can't be right - I'll be calling Perma-Tune/Rutlands tomorrow.

Thanks also for your patience!
Bill


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Posts: 1202Registered: Dec 2001
BillBadurski
FCA Technical Chairman


Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:23 PM

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Bill,
You've got the points issue right. I raced a Daytona for years using single 4-leaf point sets and MSD's, no point bounce issue. I doubt that anything is immune to point bounce, as the triggering would then vary. Try it as-is and it will probably work fine. Just be sure you have the 4-leaf point sets. I don't buy the .065" gap. I still run the .025" gap on all cars I service, regardless of ignition system. The large diameter wires will not fit the holes in the Marelli cap, so that seems to be erroneous info. The stock wires are exceptional. They have a spiral wound wire between layers of insulation. Using those, with the NGK plugs I mentioned will give years of trouble free service with no fouling.

-------------------------
William V. Badurski
FCA Technical Chairman


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Posts: 4Registered: Oct 2004
cwzilk
Junior Member


Wednesday, May 11, 2005 1:10 PM

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Thanks again Bill!

Is the 4 leaf point set something special or is that what I would get if I simply ordered a "point set" from say McCanns. Maybe my Dino already has the 4 leaf!? How do you tell?

Also, for anyone interested, Perma-Tune at www.perma-tune.com has an interesting "White Paper" on high performance ignition for Ferraris, Porsches, etc. See also their Tech Support re: the Ferrari AEC-103A Ignition System.

The only drawback to the Perma-Tune is the cost of conversion - $900-1000 at T. Rutlands.

By the way, I trust that the fact the original Perma-Tune ignition was designed by Porsche won't offend anyone in the Ferrari World.

Regards,
Bill


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Posts: 3Registered: Apr 2006
New 1984 BB512i
Junior Member


Monday, May 08, 2006 11:57 AM

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Hi Bill,

I am a new comer here and also a new owner of 1973 Dino 246 GTS US spec.

I am thinking to remove the original ignition system and replaced by MSD susyem.

I have a few questions and please give a hand.

1. Where to buy MSD, please provide me the website, e-mail, tel, fax.
2. which MSD model is good to use on 1973 Dino 246 GTS US spec.
3. How much is it?
4. Is it easy to install? Any trick way to install or adjust
5. What is the disadvantage for using MSD?

Many thanks!!!

Vincent




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Posts: 1202Registered: Dec 2001
BillBadurski
FCA Technical Chairman


Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:14 PM

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1. I get them from www.jegs.com
2. 6A
3. About $150
4. Not difficult, just follow instructions provided
5. Doesn't look original, but also doesn't fail regularly

-------------------------
William V. Badurski
FCA Technical Chairman


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Posts: 7From: EschwegeRegistered: Nov 2006
DinoParts.com
Junior Member


Monday, November 06, 2006 4:02 AM

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"State of the art" Ignition systems
Never change points again
Your R.P.M. counter functions exactly.
Can be integrated into an empty Dinoplex-box.
Refitting to the original status is possible at any time.

www.DinoParts.com

-------------------------
Look at:
www.DinoParts.com



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Posts: 1202Registered: Dec 2001
BillBadurski
FCA Technical Chairman


Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:53 PM

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Getting rather tired of seeing every post for a part hi-jacked. This is a tech site, not advertising promotion forum.


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William V. Badurski
FCA Technical Chairman


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Posts: 5Registered: Nov 2007
Botond
Junior Member


Sunday, November 11, 2007 7:56 AM

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Dear All,

I have a Fiat Dino 2.4 '71 (with engine Dino 246) but the Dinplex is missing. I have problem on low rpm, so probably I would need a Dinoplex or something similar to fix it, am I right? I planed to buy an MSD because of the price, but know you confused me a bit... ( it is not a blame!) I am not a native English speaker, so for me this "US/EU 6/3 lobed cams" issue is not so clear. Would you tell help me? What should I buy if my distributor cap has 6 "legs" 3 on the right and 3 on the left. Do I need a MSD or Permatune Model PTFR or the original Dinoplex?

Thank you!

Botond


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Posts: 4Registered: Dec 2007
ssjsolomon
Junior Member


Saturday, December 29, 2007 1:28 AM

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About a year after I bought my Dino 246GTS back in 2001 I got to use the "backup" ignition system thoughtfully provided by Ferrari in case of dinoplex failure. Of course it was night, cold, and I was in the middle of nowhere trying to read the rewiring instructions by flashlight prior to pressing the magic black button that would get me home.

So I decided to replace the dinoplex system. I also wanted to get rid of the points and their reliability problems. I did not want to go to the expense and trouble (and welding) of a Hall-effect crank trigger, so after a lot of research I installed the Crane (X-700???)system with an optical trigger, electronic ignition box and higher-energy coil. The installation uses the stock distributor, is invisible, took under 2 hours, and the Dinoplex box is still there although non-functional. I did need to add a resistor to get the tach to function properly (not mentioned in the installation instructions).

I have since logged over 15,000 miles over 6 years without a hiccup. The Dino did not transform into a BBLM, but the engine ran smoother immediately with a slight increase in power and torque and the system has been 100% reliable. If you want a fairly simple low cost upgrade I highly recommend this one. It is also totally reversible if you wanted to go back to points and dinoplex ignition for some reason.


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Posts: 5Registered: Nov 2007
Botond
Junior Member


Saturday, December 29, 2007 11:21 AM

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Dear Ssjsolomon!
Thank you for the answer. I was so hopeless, nearly gave up, though that everybody left this webpage.
I will check this item soon. I bought an MSD isntallin now, so I hope it will work. If the price of Crane is reasonable, I will get one.

But back to the original question of me: How can I identify the US or EU version of DINO distributor? What does that "6 lobed" mean?

Happy new year!

Botond


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